Magic For Pleasure
I have found that magic (as in the art, not mere illusion) is a touchy subject with believers, though I’m not sure why since the Word is so very clear on it. I took a poll a few weeks ago posing the question “Is it alright for believers to involve themselves (in any form) with magic?” and the results were nearly as they should’ve been with %97 saying “no, it’s not alright” and %3 saying “yes, it was”. The following week I took another poll: “Based on previous poll, is it fair to say believers should not read books containing any magic?” The results were quite different from the previous response, though I cannot say expected any different…. over 200 voted that it was not fair to say that believers should not read books containing magic, and a very smalll perfect said the opposite.
It seems that there are certain areas, whether because we grew up with them or because they are just personal, of our lives that believers reason out with our faith and refuse to see in any other way because it might comprise their comfort (read more). Many of you have read my stance on allegorical literature to the WORD using magic and witchcraft. I was quite disgusted when I realized I was involving myself with something that is of satan to represent a Holy God.
As long as I’ve been alive magic has been put in a fun and playful way. You see that the majority of the Disney films have some kind of witchcraft or magic in them, from the Little Mermaid to the Lion King to Mary Poppins. However, if you type in the word magic in the Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary you will find that magic is something very scary and can lead down all sorts of paths. Magic is an art of interacting with spirits, evil spirits, departed spirits, sorcery, and, enchantment. Magic is a tool Satan has used for thousands of years to deceive Yehovah’s most precious creation, Man, with since the time of Nimrod (early BC), and now, in the 21 century, he is using it more cunningly to “teach the WORD of Yehovah in a way people will be interested in”.
I wonder how Yehovah feels. I wonder how He feels knowing something that He hates so much and is such an abomination to Him is being used to represent him.
I know how He feels. His WORD tells me. His WORD says Yehovah hates sin. It is an abomination to Him. Those who follow after the ways of the pagans and their traditions will be cut off from His people and will not inherit what is in store for the righteous.
Leviticus 19: 26-28
“‘Do not eat anything with blood. Do not practice divination or fortune-telling. 27 Don’t round your hair at the temples or mar the edges of your beard. 28 Don’t cut gashes in your flesh when someone dies or tattoo yourselves; I am ADONAI.”Exodus 23:24
“You are not to worship their gods, serve them or follow their practices; rather, you are to demolish them completely and smash their standing-stones to pieces. ”Leviticus 18 28-30
“If you make the land unclean, it will vomit you out too, just as it is vomiting out the nation that was there before you. 29 For those who engage in any of these disgusting practices, whoever they may be, will be cut off from their people. 30 So keep my charge not to follow any of these abominable customs that others before you have followed and thus defile yourselves by doing them. I am ADONAI your God.’”Deuteronomy 18:9-14
“When you enter the land ADONAI your God is giving you, you are not to learn how to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, 11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you. 13 You must be wholehearted with ADONAI your God. 14 For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to soothsayers and diviners; but you, ADONAI your God does not allow you to do this.”
Magic is a sin. The WORD tells us this, and I know it saddens and angers Yehovah God to know that his children are accepting it in such ways. Yehovah is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever. His commands and instructions to do not change. What He sets apart as holy or profane will always remain so, who are we to say differently according to our interests and stipulations?
To what extent is involving yourselves with magic and who is make that judgment? You? Or Yehovah? He says to not worship the pagan gods or follow their practices – how many pagan worshiping or celebrating or holiday practices do you follow? He didn’t just say if you change them to be holy unto me or if you practice them for innocent reasons and a time of merrymaking. He said “You are to DEMOLISH them completely. Let them NOT be found among you.” Obviously Yehovah knew His people would do this – take pagan practices and follow them (even if for His worship, which He DID NOT want) – and addressed it thousands of years ago. We don’t need to be told agian. We have His instruction and what He expects of us.
Exodus 23:24
You are not to worship their gods, serve them or follow their practices; rather, you are to demolish them completely and smash their standing-stones to pieces.
Exodus 22:18
You are not to permit a sorceress to live.Deuteronomy 18: 9-13
9 When you enter the land ADONAI your God is giving you, you are not to learn how to follow the abominable practices of those nations.
10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer,11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer.12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you.13 You must be wholehearted with ADONAI your God.
Does a sorceress or witch (or anyone else who practices magic) live, good or bad, in the books you read or the movies you watch? How close to the line are you really? What about lines your faith won’t cross? Why isn’t this one of them? My faith was crossing lines for sometime and something had to go…. Yehovah’s commands or my desires, and though it was hard burning my collection I knew I was pleasing Yehovah.
I have heard that “good guys” using magic is like that of the miracles in the WORD that the apostles preformed, but while people are trying to reason this out they don’t realize that 1) magic is of Satan, no exceptions, and an abomination to Yehovah. 2) The apostles were filled with the power of Yehovah and were given authority to perform such the miracles. It doesn’t matter that people thought they were gods. That is irrelevant. We can not compare these two to one another. They are not equal. One is of Yehovah. One is of Satan.
I know what the WORD says about witchcraft and magic. It says they are abominations to Yehovah and He will drive them out. Saul died because of his rebellion to Yehovah, and we are told that rebellion is as of the sin of witchcraft (he also consulted a Medium). Not only did Saul die, but so did his sons and his crown was passed onto another tribe. He waso unfaithful to Yehovah in his ways and did not seek out His way, so Yehovah let him go unto his own imaginations.
Deuteronomy 29:19-20
“If there is such a person, when he hears the words of this curse, he will bless himself secretly, saying to himself, ‘I will be all right, even though I will stubbornly keep doing whatever I feel like doing; so that I, although “dry,” [sinful,] will be added to the “watered” [righteous].’ 29:20 But ADONAI will not forgive him. Rather, the anger and jealousy of ADONAI will blaze up against that person. Every curse written in this book will be upon him. ADONAI will blot out his name from under heaven.”
What is the difference between consulting a witch and reading, for pleasure, about witches and magic? Yehovah hates all types of magic, and He doesn’t differeniate between practicing magic or if you just read about doing it. He just says He hates it so therefore we must assume that it means ALL, to every extent. If there was a chance that it alright to, as a believers, read about such abominations, how can it be edifying in your life? This is where the being a sheep or a goat will be proven out.
I encourage you to refute this with the WORD, but I don’t think you will. That would mean Yehovah is a liar or confused, and we know He is not. He is not subject to such human emotions and does not change. The WORD doesn’t contridict itself, and if the WORD doesn’t back you up then I would encourage you to purge all things that conflict with Yehovah, the WORD, and Yeshua [Jesus].
1 Samuel 15: 23-29
“For rebellion is like the sin of sorcery, stubbornness like the crime of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of ADONAI, he too has rejected you as king.” 24 Sha’ul said to Sh’mu’el, “I have sinned. I violated the order of ADONAI and your words too, because I was afraid of the people and listened to what they said. 25 Now, please, pardon my sin; and come back with me, so that I can worship ADONAI.”26 But Sh’mu’el said to Sha’ul, “I will not go back with you, because you have rejected the word of ADONAI, and ADONAI has rejected you as king over Isra’el.”27 As Sh’mu’el was turning around to leave, he took hold of the hem of his cloak, and it tore. 28 Sh’mu’el said to him, “ADONAI has torn the kingdom of Isra’el away from you today and given it to a fellow countryman of yours who is better than you. 29 Moreover, the Eternal One of Isra’el will not lie or change his mind, because he isn’t a mere human being subject to changing his mind.”
If it’s not of Yehovah, then it’s of Man, and man’s way are not righteous. Man’s ways lead to death.
Take a minute to step out of what you’ve grown up with, what you are comfortable with, and what you have reasoned out with your faith, and simply consider what the Word says.
Shalom
58 Comments | Rules of Engagement | What Are You Talking About??
Posted By Miss Jocelyn Tzahala on October 13, 2008 | Category: Editorals, The Scriptures, These Last Days
Welcome to A Pondering Heart. Blessings to you in your visit here! This site is owned by a 18yo young lady, Miss Jocelyn who is striving to please Yahweh in everything she does. She is the second eldest daughter of two wonderful parents, sister to seven siblings, and "momma" to beautiful Nubian goats. Currently completing her education and serving Yahweh until she further serves him in marriage and motherhood. In hopes she might encourage ladies in a Scriptural-worldview she shares about her daily life, beliefs, and heart’s ponderings. Here you will find stories from life on the homestead, encouragement, the Scriptures, photography, reviews, giveaways, memes, and much more!
WOW! this is pretty profound! Once again you have brought the light of the Gospel into the dark of the world!
I love what you said about having a scripture to back up your claims! Too many times we have our own standards instead of going off God’s standards!
Thank you for sharing your heart and what the Lord has laid on it! You are such an example of doing what is right even when you are doing it alone!
Love you,
Amanda
I was more surprised at the results than you were. I wonder, though, with so many results, if your poll was spammed. I would think that more Believers than that would recognize what the WORD says about witchcraft.
You know, the more I remember about seeing CON for the first time – well, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe – the more I wonder when it changed. I was adamantly against you girls watching it when you were younger. I think we become lax in our thinking as little things become acceptable – the frog in the kettle.
Doing something you don’t know is wrong is one thing. To have the conviction that you are doing something wrong and ignore it, well, that is something entirely different.
One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that we are all humans, and we all sin. None of us is perfect. Knowing this, we can all walk in the LORD, admonishing one another, spurring each other on to perfection in the LORD, allowing each other to grow in Him and loving each other, regardless.
I praise the LORD that I see the LORD in you daughter.
LOVE YOU JOCELYN!!
((HUGS))
Do you think your poll has revealed that ‘professing christians’ have one foot in the church doors, and one foot in the world?
Meaning, that they would not call up a spirit, or sacrifice a small child, but it’s ok to have Harry Potter, and Halloween in their lives?
I do not find your results, surprising, as much as I do find them “telling” of people’s lack of desire to know God, lack of ambition to follow God, and lack of humility to admit when they are wrong!
This was a great, poll!
Laura
When I first saw this page, I thought oh here is another Chrisitan defending ‘Magic’…however after reading it I was so pleased to find that your post was actually lifting up the word against such defilement! HallelYah! It was so good for my soul to read this, it encouraged me to believe that there are still people wanting and believing in the whole unadultrated word of Yah! Thank You for such a beacon of a post!
Truley this post is like a lighthouse guiding those who seek truth on the dark turbulant sea of this world!
Thank You!
Blessings
Penny in TN
Good post Jocelyn! I agree with you 100%!
I hope that you are doing well! :-)
Joys last blog post.."Pure" Review and Giveaway
This is something to ponder…really it is. I guess I haven’t thought about it much.
So I assume you would be against things like Lord of the Rings and Narnia, right? What about optical illusions that are called magic? My brother and I were wondering about this just yesterday.
What do you think?
It is a little misleading to say that Saul died because he consulted the witch. In Samuel 28:18 it seems to indicate that he died for disobeying God’s instructions about Amalek. That being said, it is apparent that consulting a witch was obviously wrong and displeasing to God.
Once again you have brought up an issue that I still am not sure of. You could argue that the magic in books is not the same as real magic and just has the same name. However the Bible is pretty clear about not associating at all with magic. I wouldn’t read a book where the magic resembled dark arts.
For me, video games with magic are also and issue. Many games have references to magic without actually focusing on it. I guess I’m not really sure right now. Anyway, thanks for your article, it was really thought provoking.
I just thought of something as I was reading the responses to this. Laura mentioned halloween… boy does it really burn me up when Christians celebrate that evil day! Christians who KNOW what that day represents and STILL go out and attend the festivities! It is so wrong and they don’t care! When did Christians stop worrying about doing what is right and start doing whatever they feel like? IT IS WRONG!
ok… sorry… just had to say that! :)
Amanda
Very good article, Jocelyn. I have been very leery of reading books that involve magic or witches in them. Since I had that dream about witches, I have been terrified of going near any material that has anything to do with witches or magic in them.
I am very glad we were pulled out of doing LOTR because it is very evil. I hate the way “Christians” use magic as a lure to ‘teach’ the Gospel.
It really makes me mad. If Christians would read their Bibles, they would know what was right and what was wrong. They are being blinded by Satan and are most likely put in a position of going with the world or standing up for God when it comes to magic-involved material.
I would really like to know how Christians can say that the Harry Potter series is not evil and from Satan. It is centered around power-hungry witches and sorcerers. The same thing with LOTR – it’s centered around an evil ring.
As for the subject of Halloween, if people would read into the history of that cursed day, then they would want to have nothing to do with it. It comes completely from Satan. His followers created it as a day to worship him instead of God. Please, if you do Halloween, take a look at it’s history.
I must agree with you – if you are going to write about something like this, have a Biblical basis for it, using Scripture to back it up. Don’t just post what you think is right. Use the Scriptures to back you up.
Well, I very much enjoyed this article, Jocelyn. I am so glad this was brought to light. So many people celebrate Satan’s Holiday. Thank you again! Oh and I am going to post about this on my blog. :)
Love,
Lil’ Sis Rachel
Thank you for another in depth article Miss Jocelyn. I think that as people who are creatures of habit, we have not only accepted ‘magic’(as well as many other pet sins), but we also are continuing in it. Many people are mesmerized by the sweetness of Disney and other such tales that we don’t dare take a stand against something that seems so innocent.
Christians have allowed these ‘mild’ forms of sin and it has infected the body as a whole. Then when someone stands up, such as you have, and says “Wait a minute! This is WRONG!” Others think we’re ridiculous. They bat their eye at it and blow it off as innocent fairy tales.
People think books, such as Narnia, are some kind of parable to teach God’s principles, yet Jesus never used parables that contained that which God has strictly forbidden in the life of a Christian.
I think that Christians need to take a deeper look into scripture and get back to God’s original purpose for our lives. If we desire to be effective soul winners then we must live a life that is pure so that the Holy Spirit can have the freedom to work. I believe that when God ‘divided the light from the darkness’ in the book of Genesis, that he was doing far more than just creating day and night.
Isaiah 5:20, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
John 12:46, “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
2 Corinthians 6:14, “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?”
It’s interesting to do a search on Bible.com for all verses containing the words, ‘light’ and ‘darkness’ in the same verse. Read just those that come up, (57 references) and see that God is being very clear that there must be a definite difference between light and darkness.
Trying to combine black(darkness) and white(light) only gives you gray. If we all settle for being gray then how will the world know that we are of the light? Light should shine, showing ‘the way’. A gray light doesn’t give a very clear view in the darkness.
Sisterlisas last blog post..A Free Handbag?!?
Jocelyn,
Very nice article! I guess I’m equating “nice” with “truth” here. Lame choice of words, but I thought I’d just go on…are you waiting? My most recent disappointment was with the “Kit – American Girl” movie. I’d watched the trailers and noticed a magician was in the movie – levitating a woman; I was “bummed” about that, because I was pretty sure that was a no go. I wanted to make sure I’d seen that right and thought I’d wait until the movie came out and see what the Christian reviewers said about it. Nothing, nada, zip – they never mentioned it! I sent e-mails to 3 places questioning their reviews; I’ve gotten lame responses, not any apologies that it was wrong in the movie and wrong of them not to include it in their review. I’m just disappointed again; I don’t know what I was expecting.
Thanks,
Danielle
Danielle Hulls last blog post..Fall Favourites
Hey!
What age is this site based at??? Could you do a post on secular music too????
Thanx!
Krista
Neat post. I agree with Krista: can you do one of secular music?
Good article. I personally didn’t (and don’t) like that C.S. Lewis used pagan elements in his Christian allegory, but was giving into it by thinking that the overall lesson is good. I’m still not 100% sure that it’s wrong to read/watch, though I did have an uneasy feeling about watching the first one. There’s not so much witchcraft, exactly, in the story, but there are creatures that are pagan, though the witch, at least, is meant to be bad. In LOTR it’s a different matter, even worse. So I think I will be cutting that out of my life altogether and perhaps even the Chronicles of Narnia. We did used to be more strict about this kind of thing, and gradually slipped into it. Convicting article, and something I think every Christian should think more about. Even if the witchcraft isn’t affecting you personally, I think it can be a bad example to others and perhaps lead them down that path, as well as in all likelihood being an abomination to God. (Those verses you quoted do seem to be more focused on practicing witchcraft, or the act of it, but it’s hard to tell.)
Very clear post. I admire your courage for the Lord. I disagree with you though. Here’s my understanding.
Is there anything special about magic compared to other sins? I think no, I think murder and adultery are also just as wicked (they carried the same sentence, death).
Is it wrong to read about sin? Again, I think no, there is sin in God’s Holy Word the Bible which he commands us to read, Saul and the Witch, David and Bathsheeba, Ahab, Athaliah, Satan in the Garden of Eden, the Crucifixion (which was the worst sin the world ever saw or ever will.), etc…. Yet again, such sins are wrong and should not be shown in a positive light. In the Bible we are given these stories for instruction, we learn from their examples not to do as they did.
Now, what exactly is magic according to the bible? (We can’t use Webster’s 1828 because language has changed substantially since then.) Magic means many different things to us today, not all of them listed in the verses you gave us. Harmless things such as card tricks and dangerous things such as “communicating” with the dead. For example, many midwives tamper in “communicating” with the unborn baby’s spirit. They call themselves mediums if they bother to title it at all. I think that would definitely be considered witchcraft, right? It’s not directly adressed in the verses. What about little creatures with wings who flutter about in fairy tales? What about fairy tales that take place in other worlds with different rules? (in LWW the phrase Deep Magic is used to describe Aslan’s rules for sin, death and resurection not anyone’s mumbo jumbo spells.) It seems to me that some “magic” is not actually magic, but more like an optical illusion tricks for our minds.
My conclusion:
Magic according to the bible is wicked. It is sometimes edifying to read and sometimes it is evil depending on the context. Parents should take strong responsibility for their own children and make sure they will not be lead astray by the books they read.
I’m looking forward to seeing the comments on this post!
Heather
Heathers last blog post..To Spay or not to Spay?
That is a great post Jocelyn.
I’m shocked at the results of your poll!
It is sad how many think that magic and Halloween are fine.
Have a great day!
-Tessa
Tessas last blog post..Old Cars
Heather – You asked “Is there anything special about magic compared to other sins?” No, absolutely not but Christians have no problem saying murdering is wrong, lying is wrong, adultery is wrong. Yet they let magic slipped past them because man has written about it as a way to represent the Bible. I think Sisterlisa said it quite nice. Let’s not mix black with white because you only get grey.
I use the Webster 1828 dictionary because it is truer to the true meaning of words, and doesn’t distort or water them down as in a dictionary you’d find today.
I’m not talking about reading the Bible or a history about sin or witches. I’m talking about reading about magic/witches for pleasure or leisure. You’re right the Bible does contain such things and it is the only book we are commanded to read and study. I forgot to make a note about this as I’ve heard this (the Bible has magic/witches too) many times from Christians, and I just don’t think it’s at all the same thing.
I think all the fairy-tales and fantasy books you are referring to do enter into the art of magic even if it poses as an allegory to the Bible.
I made note that when I said magic I didn’t mean as in a card trick or optical illusions, but the art of magic.
Like I said I would like to see a verse that says it’s alright to read, watch, or in any means involve yourself with magic/witches. Otherwise it’s just opinion.
I agree with you entirely. Magic is not of God and is considered very wicked in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, we shall have NO part of it. If we accept any form of magic, make believe, fanasty or not, then we are actually going against God’s wishes. Christians need to learn to draw the LINE in it’s entireity. Too many of us draw a blurry, hazy line where it’s easy to cross back and forth. God will look down and say, “who’s side are you on?”
I love your blog.
Great post.
I hope it opens up the eyes of the church.
Keep up the great work.
Candy
WOW….great article Joc…I am a little surprised Heather that you would compare reading other secular books to reading the bible! I think there is a HUGE difference and if you are a christian why would you even compare the two. You also said “Magic according to the bible is wicked. It is sometimes edifying to read and sometimes it is evil depending on the context” I take it the “sometimes edifying and sometimes wicked” was in ref to something other than the bible…you mean secular books. If the bible says it it wicked…as you said…I am thinking we are to refrain from anything and everything WICKED…and I agree Jocelyn…that is what is wrong with the our Christian belief’s in this day and age….We assume that we are wise enough to decide just how much we can consume of something that is wicked! Whether it is made to look harmless or not! Remember the bible says the devil shall come as “an angel of light”…We are seeing way too many angels in disguise as Christians :( very sad.
Thanks for the article Jocelyn…thanks for your comment Heather.
Aunt Jen
Sylvia – I have your comment in moderation. You yourself said it might add to the confusion and gave no Scriptural back-up so I am not publishing due to the fact that it probably will confuse the issue.
I also do not want any other dictionary definition used. The dictionaries of today are watered down and don’t give a fair definition many times. When I wrote magic I meant the ART OF MAGIC as defined the NW dictionary. Besides that even if the definitions of magic are different in certain dictionaries you can look in many fantasy books and find “charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.” If that is so then it needs to be thrown out. All the things you mentioned in the passage I gave are different sects of the art of magic. Go look up that passage in different translation and you will find it to be so.
Again you didn’t give a verse to back-up your believes therefore it is only opinion. I am not looking for opinion but the Word.
Jocelyn–
That’s perfectly fine that you don’t want to post the comment (It was probably written in a totally confusing way…lol) My whole goal was just to ask questions in order to get the big picture. What do you mean by saying that I didn’t give a verse to back up my beliefs? What beliefs? My beliefs on the definition of the word “magic?”
What I was trying to say was that perhaps a more precise thing to say would be “demonic consultation” rather than “magic” as, although all of those elements in the Scripture passage do fall under the category of magic, the umbrella of meaning for the word is broader (from my POV anyway). Does that make sense?
I am really interested in your answer to this question (I have been thinking about it ever since I read your post…), do the properties of magic stay the same even in a totally different world with different supernatural beings and powers? No matter what our definition of “magic” is, we can all agree that it has something to do with the supernatural element. So, when the supernatural element changes, does the fundamental meaning of the magic change?
You don’t have to discuss the question with me if you don’t want to…I’m sure I could talk with somebody else about it, I just thought you might be interested in delving deeper into the topic. Stroking the beard a little bit, so to speak. ;)
all my best!
Sylvia
Miss Jocelyn,
I am certain that we would all agree that fiction in and of itself is not wrong, after all, our Lord Jesus used parables, fictional stories, as illustrations of Biblical facts and/or themes. But, of course, just because Christ used fiction does not automatically mean that everything fictional is proper and appropriate for us, as Christians, to read. In fact, quite the contrary; we must be careful what we read. As Christians we have standards, taken from the Bible, about what is proper and fitting for us to read. As Ephesians 6:12 says, “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” The Bible, when it speaks of witchcraft and/or magic is talking about occult, satanic witches and sorcerers.
My family lived in Santa Cruz, California, for seven years; it is a scary place so overrun with witchcraft and evil that witch covens advertise in the newspaper, much like churches advertise the location of their building and time(s) of worship. These covens obviously and unabashedly worship the devil. This is the evil sorcery and witchcraft that the Bible is talking about, and I certainly would never ever read a book that had to do with it or have any desire to read such a book.
However, I believe there is a distinction between this kind of real, evil devil-worship and the fictional, fantastical “magic” in stories. The standards that I use, and see in the Bible, are: Is it based in the real world or is it make-believe–like talking animals, etc.; and does it portray good as good and evil as evil.
Fictional stories all have a point; they have an agenda, created by the author. Thus, we must be careful with stories because man is sinful, and, thus, fiction is written by sinful man. But, when a story is set in a make-believe world, it is different than if it were set in the real world because it is not trying to be real. It is trying to be imaginative, and it is not saying, “See, this is something you can do (or be).” Now, just because something is set in a made-up place does not mean that it can be about all manner of wickedness and be alright. But, it isn’t trying to be real, and that is in itself something of a distinction. Furthermore, these stories about “magic” are not about the magic condemned in the Bible. They are not condoning devil-worship. The magic used in these books does not, nor is intended to, have any basis in reality. For example, no one can be confused as to believe that it is possible to be Sauron or Gandalf; or that if they speak aloud some Latin word the dishes will wash themselves (as in Harry Potter). These make-believe stories about “magic” I believe are biblically permissible, as long as they are not about the real devil-worship the Bible speaks about, and as long as they maintain a strong distinction between what is evil and what is good. These stories can be edifying when they maintain this distinction because they use these representations of evil and good to show us our sin and the dangers of temptation through the lives and experiences of the characters. Of course no one was ever saved by reading fiction; it is the Bible that saves and not fictional stories, but stories can be creative and edifying, even if they involve what the story calls “magic” as long as they maintain that the magic in the book is not real, and it is not the evil witchcraft of the devil.
So, depending on what you mean by the defenition of magic; I agree with you. But the wording for the poll was confusing because the word “magic” is often used with different meanings, and sometimes it is evil, and sometimes not.
And please be careful not to judge people’s hearts simply because they have reached a different conclusion about an issue than you have. Just because someone doesn’t believe that Narnia is sinful doesn’t mean they are any less concerned about the Bible or what God says about the issue. As 1 Corinthians 4:3-5 says, “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each ones praise will come from God.” Of course this doesn’t mean we don’t judge behavior. But we don’t judge hearts because no one can see the heart but God.
~Ariel
Great post Jocelyn….I agree 100%. Very interesting comments. It is true, the Bible tells us that using magic, witchcraft, etc. is a sin. I can’t understand why someone would want to dabble in the occult, and possibly open doorways that give satan a foothold in their life!!!!! Doesn’t make sense. Thanks for sharing…Keep up the good work.
Grandma Starrs last blog post..Simple Woman’s Daybook
Amen! I loved this post not just because I agree with you, but because you have been convicted about something you really enjoyed (I read your LOTR blog and post) and chosen the path of Truth when presented to you. We own all the LOTRs and several versions of Chronicles of Narnia (which I grew up loving!) and I have been rethinking this and discussing with my Husband whether or not we should keep them now. We have been very careful with our Disney movies, but it’s hard.
Some people get upset and say it’s legalistic. But obedience to God is right… it was right when He wrote it/said it, it was right hundreds of years later and it is right NOW. His Word is timeless and endless. I see magic of this type as our enemy’s attempt to imitate God. He wants to have God’s power and he uses what he has to imitate, entice and/or intimidate to get what he wants. Much of magic (i.e. Arwen) is the “beautiful side of evil”. I think mediums who give messages to loved ones or help find criminals or kidnap victims fit into this category. We are amazed by them, drawn to the beauty and this becomes a doorway for much darker and more evil things. Every testimony I have heard from former magic practitioners has confirmed this. You may not walk through the door, but then again you might.
I read your comment to the person about whether it is a worse sin. Sin is sin. That is when you are talking about positionally with God. However, it is true that some sin has great consequences, both to ourselves and to others. I believe magic is a sin in this category. Some people might be shocked at the analogy but I think it is like pornography. Some people look at it and walk away, some people look at it and are sucked into an evil world. But everyone who looks at it has pictures or words of evil indelibly marked in their brain. The older I get, and as I am responsible for teaching my own children, the more I realize how precious our minds and hearts are and that time should not be wasted. The old 80s saying of Garbage In, Garbage Out applies.
Those of us who agree with you should be standing by you in prayer, because you are speaking boldly on a subject that effects many and the enemy does not like the truth to be told.
Paul said we are not to be conformed to the world but transformed by the renewing of our minds. I think it is important to remember that Jesus combatted the enemy’s temptations by quoting Scripture to him. I’m not saying that the Bible is the only book Christians should ever read, but it is the Authority!
God bless you for taking a stand and for developing your thoughts and conviction in a format that young women will be reading in the midst of a mediocre world that chooses not to believe in absolutes.
Theresas last blog post..More Birthday Scrapbook Pages
[...] With Halloween coming up, it is a topic everyone should seriously consider in light of The WORD: Magic For Pleasure. She discusses further her stance on allegorical literature to the Bible using magic and witchcraft [...]
My Goodness!! There are a LOT of posts here!! I just spent over half an hour reading them all! Anyway, I don’t think there is much I can say, I agree wholeheartedly with what you said… I wish it was as easy to obey as to agree! Thanks for posting this Jocelyn. I’m definatelly going along with these girls saying that you should make a post about secular music. It’s definatelly a struggle that many young people have in this day and age, and your blog is the pefect place to post about it! So, if you want to tackle it… :D Blessings! btw, it’s finally cooling down here! YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
~
Sarah Jeans last blog post..Feelin’ Feminine Challenge: Day 7
Great blog! I think it silly how people, even christians say that celebrating halloween is okay. We used to go to a church where the pastors kids would go trick-or-treating. We moved to a different church because of that. We [lucky to live out of town] didn’t get any trick-or-treaters. If we did, we would probably hand out Chick Tracts. Many christain churches have halloween parties to “get people to come and get saved”. I personally think it’s really silly to say that because then they will think it’s fine to celebrate halloween if your a christian “because the church says it’s all right”. Many of my christian friends celebrate the wicked holiday “because the church says it’s alright”. Why don’t they see what God says instead of the church? A simple answer: because they are either to lazy to read it or they don’t want to have to believe it. My family used to be big LOTR fan, but a long time ago we decided that it was still pagan, even though it was written by a ‘christian’ author. Though, I still read books, I think that the best book to get your information from is the Bible. I know some churches that read devotionals by so called ‘christian’ authors in church! It’s crazy! Britany Spears mother is a so called ‘christian’ author and some ‘christian’ ladies groups read her books in ‘Bible Studies’. It’s so strange how people will take eat the milk because it’s smooth and they don’t think it will be too hard, but they lack the eating of the meat, that is too tough for them. How can they call themselves christians if they don’t read all of the Bible? Sometimes they don’t even compromise what they believe with the Bible, which is still somewhat wrong to do. This is a very inspiring blog and I was shocked at the poll results! Thank you for posting these thoughts and having some scripture in it, which some sites lack! Thanks again!
~Heidi Mae
I also wanted to add some more, but I wasn’t sure how long the comments could be, so I’ll post another one. A lady from my old church once said “What’s wrong with halloween? It’s not like we celebrate witches or satan.” Yes it is like your worshiping Satan and Witches! Halloween wasn’t invented until witches and pagans started celebrating it. It’s alright to have a harvest festival, like celebrating God for a good harvest or something, but when Christians celebrate halloween, I just want to cry. Many ‘christians’ are reading a series of books called Twilight. They’re about vampires for heaven sakes! How can ‘christians’ read them without having an uneasy feeling? When I read LOTR’s I felt terrible when I got to book #2. Does Halloween glorify God? Do these books glorify God? If your not sure about something, it’s probably not. As much as I hate to say this, even The Wizard of Oz is pagan. I hate to think that some of my dear siblings in Christ worship the wicked holiday of halloween. I recommend one of Miss Jocelyn’s post called Satan’s Holiday for every christian who disagree’s with this blog. If you read it with a heart of correction for yourself, you will probably end up not celebrating Halloween, if you already do. Some ‘christian’ parents use trick-or-treating as a bribe for their children to be good. It crazy! Thanks again!
~Heidi Mae
You never cease to amaze me girlie!! I agree with you, I tried to explain this to my husband who occasionally watches “Chriss Angel”.. a ‘reality’ show about a man who performs magic tricks. Now I have this blog entry to help back me up, thank you!
Sylvia –
I guess I shouldn’t have put your beliefs since you didn’t really comment about the post in regards to right or wrong, only on the definition of magic. However, since I already know you I know what you think on the matter I knew where you were coming from. I also know you read not only LOTR and CON but Harry Potter, and have no Scriptural basis for it.
I gave the definition of magic and my reference (Noah Webster Dictionary). I think that should clearly explain what definition and what I meant when I said “magic” and I also made it a point to add “witchcraft” as well.
As to answer your question…No. When the supernatural element changes the fundamental meaning of the magic does not change according to the Bible. Besides we are to look to the Bible for our definitions of such things. If you read in Exodus 7:11 you’ll find that the Egyptians call their wise men and sorcerers magicians because they practiced certain sects of magic. I already wrote in my post that God’s “magic” is called miracles and there is no good magic. One is from God, the other from Satan. Please read my post again.
Ariel –
Yes, I do agree that not all fiction is wrong, and while Jesus did you parables to teach he didn’t use anything that went against God’s word, such any sect of magic. The only distinction between fantasy and down-right occultic films/books is that one is accepted by Christians and the other is not. That is like saying a little white-lie is alright, but lying about something bigger is worse. No, they’re both the same. I think this is where Christians tend to draw lines in their faith and reason out why it alright to do this but not this. No. God’s word says we shall not suffer a witch to live. Why do we get to say it’s alright because we’re only reading/watching about it? Especially if it’s only for pleasure?!
I think magically make-believe places are wrong… because they take away from God’s creation. We don’t need to read about some other world filled with talking animals and wizards and evil plots, etc. We need to read His word and focus on this world because that’s all that matters.
I think you are drawing lines with saying “biblically permissible”. I said if you are going to comment in disagreement have the Word of God as your foundation. There is no where in the Bible that says “as long they are not about the real devil-worship”. Harry Potter, LOTR, CON all have enchantment, witches, charmers, consulting with spirits, wizards, and necromancers and right there in my Bible is says these are abominations to our HOLY God. I don’t believe in any way can HP be edifying, and from further study I don’t think the rest can be either. Edifying how, especially since many don’t read them to gain an kind of spiritual understand, only for leisure? How can they further your spiritual growth and the kingdom of God? Can they be used as tool for God’s kingdom? God can use ANYTHING for His glory. He is God, but that doesn’t mean we should force him do use what we want so to speak. We are not to dwindle in things His word says we shall not suffer to live!
I’ve already stated twice that when I say magic I mean the art of magic, and not card tricks or optical illusions.
I’m not judging anyone’s heart. I am presenting the Word and showing what God says about such abominations. If someone feels judged it’s because God’s Word has drawn a line and they may be crossing it. The Bible says in Matthew 7:2 that we shall be judge with the measure we judge others. If I am judging anyone I am doing so by the Word and that is exactly how I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to judge me.
As to comments on secular music… *lip quivers* I don’t mind writing on this stuff it’s just the bone-heads who I’ll have to debate afterwards, which takes time! LOL I write a little bit on that here http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=383 and got a bunch of “what about…” comments. :-/ I know where I stand and I believe (and why) it’s just takes a while to type it all out intelligently!
Very good and provoking post! I’m so glad you tackled this subject–I wholeheartedly agree!
I hate to say it, but I also wasn’t too shocked at your poll results based on what we hear/see around us in the Christian world.
As a child, I messed around with ouija boards, mental telepathy, fortune telling, and did the “seance” thing at slumber parties. I once was possessed at a seemingly silly 6th grade girls’ prank at a party, but I will NEVER forget how it felt to not be in control of my body or what I was saying! It was brief, and praise God I renounced it and He cleansed me from it all!
I don’t share those things to glorify the dark world, but all those things I mentioned I got into “innocently” as a 5th-6th grader–so I was 10-11. Just goofing off. I also got into witchcraft–”white” as some people say–through a silly book that had silly things in it. But it was an open door to the enemy!
I will say that when I renounced my involvement in all this (had been a Christian for a few years but hadn’t realized the need to do it), there was a struggle in the spirit realm that scared me. Again, I praise HIM for delivering me from all involvement and all the open doors I had agreed to through that involvement!
So I plead with you young people who still aren’t sure—it is NOT something to just play around with, it is NOT just some innocent thing, it’s NOT okay to just read about it.
If you’re still thinking, “Well, but…” I challenge you to read your Bible twice as much as you read those other books. I think you will find in time that they will be exposed for what they truly are. And that is a good balance–even for “good” and “edifying” books–if we read them more than the Bible, we are still giving more priority to man’s words than God’s (as Heidi Mae pointed out, even lukewarm so-called Christian’s words!).
Again, I implore you who might think this isn’t “that big a deal”, it is. It most certainly is.
Blessings on you, Jocelyn, for writing this!
Mrs. Trisch
[...] asked the question on Jocelyn’s post: Magic For Pleasure, about all forms of magic (in the manner of sorcery) being supernatural. I do agree that magic, [...]
Sylvia, you said,”No matter what our definition of “magic” is, we can all agree that it has something to do with the supernatural element. So, when the supernatural element changes, does the fundamental meaning of the magic change?”
I do agree that magic, apart from sleight of hand magic, is using a supernatural power.
Magic is referred to in the Bible as pertaining to those who use supernatural powers to be like gods or to know things that only God knows or to connect with spirits or direct the future. Magic is referred to as being used by sorcerers.
A Few points about magic, the supernatural, and the Bible:
#1. The supernatural means it is above the natural and not of our material world. It refers to spiritual powers, not natural ones that we humans have.
#2. We know that there are 3 entities that have spiritual powers: God, angels and devils [or demons].
God has ultimate control over all. Humans obviously can be given supernatural power, but it must come from somewhere. It comes from God or the devil.
#3. God’s powers are good, as are his angels’, who do His will, and the devils’ powers are evil.
#4. The Bible is the inspired WORD of God and all things in it are for our benefit.
#5. We are not to add to the WORD of God.
#6. C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien, whether they were Believers or not, were not writing their novels as Bible Studies.
We are not to consider these books as equal to the Bible, nor are we to overstep Biblical principles to call them good and say, “Well, they can be edifying.” An optimist can find the good in anything, but that does not account it to being Godly.
#7. God did not attribute good to any idols or sorcerors in the WORD.
The Bible does not give good, Godly supernatural powers to devils or idols. The characters in LOTR and CON are pagan idols and witches and wizards. Are you telling me that God would attribute Godliness to these creatures? That is what you are saying. Gandalf is a wizard. Oreus is a minotaur. Tumnus is a satyr. The most famous satyr is Pan. If you want to do a study on evil, study Pan.
One problem with reading books that are “good” magic is that it desensitizes human beings to the spirituality of magic. It becomes something that is relative and natural to them in their flesh. Have you ever heard of the frog in the kettle? Why is it you think you are above that? God said that a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Jocelyn addressed the issue of the pagan god Pan. READ ABOUT HIM. UGGHHHHHH! blech!
Tumnus is a Pan. Ever heard of the frog in the kettle?
#8. We are to give God the glory in all that we do.
This list is a [small] part of my article: Magic, the Supernatural, and the Bible
If you would like to read it, come on over to Walking Therein! http://jacquedixon.com/?p=1398
This is a small list of things we need to keep above what our flesh wants to do in reading literature or listening to music or any other activity that God does outline in the WORD.
Hie WORD is life. He does answer these issues in the WORD. We have to make the choice to serve Him or serve ourselves.
It really is that simple.
blessings and love to all of you!!
MrsD aka Mother Dear!
What about optical illusions/visual tricks/sleight of hand stuff that is also called magic? What do you think of that Miss Jocelyn?
Sharon –
There is no spiritual connotation to card tricks or optical illusions. They are preformed by technique. Now… levitating has to do with using spirits (magic/witchcraft) which goes against God’s word.
I’m not against everything or having fun… just against what the Bible says is evil/sinful.
Well, I always knew I was a poor communicator with the written word, but I had no idea I was that bad! *sigh* I’ll try again.
I DEFINITLY did not mean to even lightly imply that it is ever wrong to read the bible. I also didn’t mean to imply that other books (christian or secular) were equal to the Bible, that a newer dictionary would be better, or that ALL fairy tales and books with magic in them are just fine. Sorry Jocelyn, I had seen your note about card tricks and I should have said so in my comment. I did not reference particular verses because I was speaking of the Bible as a whole in most places and I thought everyone would be already be familier with the parts I mentioned particularly. I’m really sorry about all the confusion! I’ll try and clarify these things.
I was trying to say that since the perfect book written by the perfect author has sin in it, it is good to read about sin sometimes. (2 Tim 3:16 says ALL scripture) A particular sin does not necessarily disqualify a book because they’re all in the Bible. When I said, “Magic according to the bible is wicked. It is sometimes edifying to read and sometimes it is evil depending on the context.” I meant, It is sometimes edifying to read ABOUT MAGIC and sometimes evil. I did not mean that it is ever anything less than wonderful to read all of the Bible.
We cannot define the Bible by our own favorite dictionary any more than we can allow the Supreme Court to define the Constitution by theirs. God did not speak these words in 1828 English! In both cases the words mean what the author intended them to mean to the people who originally heard them. I think He defined what He meant by witch (the word magic is not in the Bible anywhere that I can see) in this very passage as a fortune teller and someone who tries to communicate with spirits. I tried looking divination, enchanter, witch, charmer, wizard, and necromancer up in a Hebrew/Greek lexicon/concordance. All I found were variations of these two sins plus casting spells and communicating with the devil (who is a spirit). I believe these are witchcraft no matter what they are titled (a medium, harmless games, a psychic, or even meditation sometimes), anything else is an optical or mental illusion for our eyes and minds even if it is now called magic.
A quick question, what do you feel about Superman, Spiderman, Batman, etc.? They have magical (optical illusion) powers too even if they aren’t exactly called “magic”. Where do you draw the line?
Using the Bible as my guide, I have a very high standard for fiction books. I most definitely believe it is wrong to write a book where wrong is right. If a witch is practicing witchcraft she should NOT be on the good guy’s side. Christian or non, the author must be teaching a biblical lesson! However, I don’t mind other kinds of magic (illusions) because I just can’t see how that kind of magic is being addressed in these verses. When did Aslan communicate with spirits, tell fortunes, or cast spells?
I am only stating my opinion. However, it has taken a lot of study, prayer and talks with family to come to this opinion and is the only one I can logically reach with my limited–I’m human, remember “though a mirror dimly”–understanding of the Bible that draws–what my limited vision calls–clear lines and not hazy ones with exceptions all over the place. I would like to see where in the Bible these other fantasies are shown as wrong. Otherwise, I just can’t see clearly where to draw the line.
Jocelyn, I respect your opinion highly and I love you very dearly and if you can show me better I’ll take all this back. I’ve gleaned a lot of important truths from your blog and have read many an encouraging post.
Heather
Heathers last blog post..To Spay or not to Spay?
I was going to tagging this onto the end of my other comment and then I thought I’d better take it off and post it separate.
Just a thought, would Halloween lose popularity if Christians just ignored it? Stopped fighting it, stopped trying to change it, stopped trying to witness with it, and just ignored it? Stopped giving it so much attention? I firmly believe that there are things in this world we should fight, but not everything in the same way. Do you know how HP came to glory? Some of the Christians opposed it and some of them supported it and everyone else wanted to know what they were fussing about. My mom needed to review it for some homeschoolers and she gave up after the first chapter because it was so badly written! Bloomington books only printed a few copies of the 1st ed because they didn’t think it would sell. I wonder if we’re being to busy with lightier matters instead of putting our energy into heavier things and actually drawing attention to the lighter things that they wouldn’t get otherwise. I don’t know, just a last minute thought as I was about to click “post”. I’d love to hear your advice on this as I really don’t know.
Heather
Heathers last blog post..To Spay or not to Spay?
I guess I was misunderstood when I commented about the NW dictionary. As far as the Bible goes the definition in NW dictionary for magic is correct – according to the KJV (I understand what you’re saying about looking it up in Hebrew). The reason I put a note about other things, like card tricks, that are labeled magic is because I wanted to avoid any confusion.
Super-heroes…. I think they should all go from our house. Yes, I do believe they are in line with LOTR. I’ve tried to weed out all of this kind of media and I still am. Mother Dear has already banned POTC because of all the sin and witchcraft in that!
I don’t recall Aslan using any sort of spells or communicating with spirits. However, in the same book there are other characters who do have these powers. Just because one character is good does not redeem all the rest, again, especially if you’re only reading them for leisure. Also, as Mother Dear commented, Tumnus is a “good guy” in CON but he represents the pagan god Pan and so on.
“I would like to see where in the Bible these other fantasies are shown as wrong. ” If these fantasies contain anything involving magic as the passage I posted shows than that is where the Bible says they are wrong. Where does it say they are right? I’ve shown a verse where it says it’s wrong, and that is why I said if you’re going to disagree then show me a verse where it says it’s not.
Why do Christians say “well it doesn’t say I have to wear a skirt in the Bible” and because there’s not exact wording they don’t, even though it definitely does says that women shouldn’t cross-dress in men’s clothes?
Thank you, Heather, I respect you too and love you like a sister, and am glad that we can talk about this without parting ways!
I don’t know if you read my mother’s new post, but it covers a lot more of what we’re talking about here… http://jacquedixon.com/?p=1398
(((HUGS)))
Oh your second comment! There are always going to be worldly Christians who participate in this satanic holiday, and I think it is a Christian duty to a brother/sister in Christ to hold them accountable to God’s Word (not making them do something but encouraging them in righteousness). There are many people who celebrate halloween (Christians) who don’t truly understand the pagan origins and need to be taught. I don’t think ignoring it will do any good.
As to answer your question…No. When the supernatural element changes the fundamental meaning of the magic does not change according to the Bible.
Uhmmmm…errr…when in the Bible do supernatural elements change? There’ always simply God (w/ His angels) and Satan (w/ his demons).
Mrs. D–I’ll probably reply to your post on your blog. :) Thanks for that response.
~Sylvia
[[that first paragraph in my comment should have quotes around it as it was your statement and not mine...I tried to edit it but it didn't work...]]
There are some good comments here, though I’m wondering along with Heather if superhero type stories are wrong. It doesn’t seem to be in the same category as witchcraft, more just fantasy, or, in the case of Batman, more scientific. There may be elements of new age thinking stuck in there, though, and it’s something I’m still thinking through.
I appreciated Theresa’s and Mother Dear’s comments, as well as some of the others. It is hard to take a stand against these things, especially when mostly-godly Christian friends and family urge you to see a movie with them or tell you they’re fine to watch. We must remember that though we may respect our friends and family, they’re not always right about everything, and we have to look at the Bible to know the truth.
Hello Miss Jocelyn!
I understand completely about the way some christians just take some of the bible and live off it, while they are living a sinful life. How can they think they’re christians, if they know they are disobeying God’s word? That’s just it! They know that they’re not really christians, but they don’t want to ‘not act like one’, even though they don’t. Many “christians’” as they like to be called, are into all the witchy, pagan things. Even C.S. Lewis’s Narnia and Tolkein’s LOTR is pagan, even though they’re written by christian men. Tolkein admitted that he did not write LOTR with a christian theme in mind. C.S. Lewis is one author I don’t really get. Did he write Narnia with a christian’s life-style in mind or not? I’m not certain. I still think that some people’s website’s shouldn’t state that they “know C.S. Lewis didn’t go to heaven” because you never know. I’ve looked at so many website’s that state that. How do they know? Also, the bible says that you shouldn’t judge unbeliever’s, but you should judge [with a compassionate heart] your fellow believers. If they don’t believe he was a christian, then why are they judging him? Sorry, I am going a little off track, but I wonder why they do. I mourn those that do!
Many people are legalistic about things and then they contradict themselves! I find it rather funny! Miss Jocelyn, do know anymore christian young lady sites that aren’t legalistic? I want to find another one like yours, so I can have to favorite sites!
Thank you so much for the G-R-E-A-T blogs! As I don’t agree with you completely, I think you’re wonderful in most subjects! Have you read So Much More by Anne Marie and Elizabeth Botkin? It’s wonderful!
Once again, great blog!
*Nichole
BTW: what’s POTC?
Nichole –
You can find many wonderful sites by lovely Christian girls on my sidebar. : ) I haven’t read all of So Much More, but we did own it at one point.
POTC = Pirates of the Caribbean
Syvlia I’m not sure what you mean. You only re-irritated what I said as my answer. :) I agree they don’t change.
Hi Miss Jocelyn,
I thank you SO much for hitting this topic!! It is one that has been my ‘big thing’ for quite a long time. When I was in elementary school I got caught up in the Harry Potter craze and my best friend was obsessed with it. We made our own ’spell/potion’ books and had wands and little ‘board games’ we made. It was REAL, and Satan -the Deceiver- is VERY real. For a couple years I kept it all a secret from my parents and it was bad. I had no peace and life was horrible. I finally was convicted through Duet. 18:9-12 about it being evil and against God. You’re right- God tells us that sin is sin. Not one sin is greater than the other, except rejecting Jesus Christ, but murder is equally bad as witchcraft.
I strongly encourage fellow believers to research the authors themselves of the books they read…. for example, C.S. Lewis. It surprised me when I did that because I found that this “Christian” whom many Christians praise so, lived a life heavily steeped in pagan rituals and the love and fascination of the very things he wrote about –namely witchcraft. (Just read quotes from him.. don’t focus on OTHER people’s opinions of him, look at what this man personally says) I recall it is the pagan god Bacchus (forgive me if I’m wrong) whom Lewis mentions in I think the first book as being portrayed as a cute little boy who gives the children wine and grapes…. This “innocent” boy is in reality a pagan god (no god at all, but an idol) that is known for it’s sexual immorality. This is in a kids’ book?!?! I think there’s something wrong in that, big time! Which, goes back to rule #1: If it’s against God’s Word, then we Christians should have NO part of it!!!
Search it out! 1 Thessalonians 5:21, “Prove all things…”
In Christ,
Erin
PS– Jocelyn, last Christmas Day I read this passage of Scripture: Jeremiah 10:1-5 What do you think of this?? When I read it, I think of a “Christmas Tree”… God convicted me that those things are wrong… I researched that out too, and found out they’re pagan. What do you think?? Like you said, we’d better have Scripture to back up ALL of our beliefs, traditions, etc. God bless!
–I’m sorry if this comment spurs on yet more of ‘discussion time’ for you!
Yeah, the Bible never talks about fantasy worlds with different supernatural beings. So how do you know that “When the supernatural element changes the fundamental meaning of the magic does not change according to the Bible?”
Sorry to be so confusing. (oh, you mean “reiterated” not “re-irritated, right? ;) )
Erin
Thank you for your comment! I am so glad God saved you that evil you were doing, in secret.
My family does not celebrate Christmas in any sort of traditional way, we barely do gifts. Yes, we found that Jeremiah verse last year and (we hadn’t previously been putting up a tree) we definitely never will put one up again! Here is what my mother wrote on christmas/pagan http://jacquedixon.com/?p=1274
http://jacquedixon.com/?p=1267
Sylvia
You are splitting hairs. The Bible says WITCHES, NECROMANCY, ENCHANTERS, etc is WRONG. If the books you read have these things in them then they are WRONG and go against the Bible.
Unless you have scripture to backup your beliefs that it’s alright to read books containing magic (need I say for PLEASURE again!?) then please share… If not then I would appreciate no more opinions.
And yes, I did mean reiterated.
OK… I just have to say something now. I am NOT confrontational at all and hardly ever get into discussions like this, but I have just one thing to say…
Sylvia,
I have been reading the thread and am wondering where your Scriptural basis is for everything you say? The Bible says “and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:” 1 Peter 3:15 The only way you can do that is with Scripture. You NEED to have a scripture verse for everything you do!
I would suggest not commenting again with a statement unless you have a scriptural basis for it! :)
Jocelyn does not want to argue and you keep coming back with opinions, when she asked for bible verses! I think that if you are going to comment again, make sure you have a verse to back your opinions. That is what Jocelyn and Mama have done.
So let’s keep it to the Bible and not opinions! The Bible is the baseline and it is what all our opinions should be based on. Not what we want or feel!
Miss Amanda
PS– This comment only has to do with part of the pressing topic but- first, It thrills me to know that your family also feels the same way about the holiday of Christmas… before I hadn’t even thought of it.. Now I will do more studying about “Christmas” and really decide whether or not to even do anything to acknowledge it! We also haven’t put up a tree in two years and we have not given gifts to one another in 2-3. It’s been wonderful, but now I’m really interested in doing more investigation. Thanks for the encouragement!
Also, After God told me through His Word to get rid of my witchcraft junk (all of this, by the way, occurred while I was saved- I was very backslidden) I burned it ALL and told everything to my parents. This year I got rid of all of the ‘cute/harmless’ (which are NOT!) Disney cartoons and all other ‘fairy’ stuff I had! It was as if a huge burden fell off, and I can testify that it did! And it is only by the grace of Jesus that I now have peace and unspeakable joy!
Here’s one thing that a friend once asked me, “How is Narnia and LOTR any different than Harry Potter?” This was a girl who loved all three. It really made me think… because this girl viewed me as being a hypocrite! -And I was!! In the end, I summed it all up: witchcraft + witchcraft + witchcraft = totally against God! It was so amazing to see how God convicted my parents and myself all at the same time through different things about it. In the end… it ALL went in the trash!! (at present, I wish it went in the burn barrel!)
Keep raising your voice for God, Miss Jocelyn!
Ladies are listening!
In Christ our Redeemer,
Erin
Oh my, I’m going about this very badly.
Jocelyn-I am not splitting hairs, I am asking questions about the very core meaning of magic.
I’ll state it like I did on your Mom’s blog:
Why is sorcery wrong? Why, in the Bible, did God prohibit divination and enchantments and all that stuff?
-Simple. Because it is consulting with demonic powers and demons are the enemies of God (I reckon that’s just common sense, but if you need a Bible verse for that, Deut 32:17, 1 Cor. 10:21, or Rev. 18:2 would work nicely)
Now, we certainly don’t want to have anything to with demonic consultation, so we’ll ask the question: do LotR or CoN (or any other fantasy for that matter) contain demonic consultation?
(I hope that this is worded simply enough so that you can get the message).
Amanda-Argh…I didn’t want to get into this discussion but it was inevitable. I am “ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh,” but where in the Bible does it say that “The only way you can do that is through Scripture. You NEED a Bible verse for everything you do!” I would like to see biblical backup for that statement. (This isn’t a joke or anything, I’m really don’t know where that is in the Bible and it’s driving me crazy because everybody seems to think it’s true without question but nobody backs it up)
I really do appreciate the way you guys bear with me. I’m begging you right now to PLEASE just treat me like a little child who constantly asks questions; please be patient with me. My questions really are sincere and I’m not trying to force you to accept some hidden agenda-I am trying to find the truth.
With LOVE and lots of it ;)
Sylvia
Sylvia – I had a quite lengthy comment typed up to your question, and it was deleted from my laptop before I got to post it.
I am curious as to why I or even Jocelyn would have to answer the question you posed (is there consultation with demonic spirits in LotR and/or CoN?). Have you answered that question yourself?
Why can’t you search the Scriptures and ask the real question:
Do the characters from CON and LOTR consult GODLY sources?
Your question was that wrong question. Think about this:
We know they are consulting spirits in these books. Are they consulting Godly spirits? If not, then what? What spirits are they consulting? What are Godly spirits? In my book, they are God and the Holy Spirit.
I think you should stop making everyone prove that they are right, and YOU should prove that you are.
We do not need to disprove you. You need to prove your stand.
Can you honestly say that there is NO consultation of evil spirits in these books/movies?
LOTR:
The Ring – evil
Saruman – evil
Gandalf speaking the Black language of Mordor – evil speaking
Frodo falls into the Dead Marshes… the spirits of the dead rise – necromancy
The Mirror of Galadriel – divination
*Do I need to go on?*
CON
Tumnus – Satyr – likened to Pan, a pagan se*ual god icon
Also, there are pagan god-creatures that indicate a union of man and beast. ICK.
The Witch, of course, *IS* a witch and practices witchcraft.
Pagan rituals are included in the series (the hag and the werewolf)
Go read my post. I already addressed all of this.
Magic, the Supernatural, and the Bible: http://jacquedixon.com/?p=1398
1 Corinthians 5:6-7
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Just some food for thought for everyone:
I grew up Catholic, and went to a catholic school until I was 12, so I grew up ‘around religion’. I still wanted to have the powers that Samantha had on Bewitched. I played with Ouija boards, and got involved in alcohol and drugs as a result of the lifestyle I desired, as well and pre-marital sex.
ANY book or movie – media source- that portrays witchcraft as anything that is less than opposed to GOD is WRONG and a gateway to demonic powers. PERIOD.
The bottom line is that these books are laced with supernatural spiritual powers that are not of Our Great God. That is enough. Evil *is* woven throughout. If a former witch says that the LOTR coincides with the rituals and practices of Wicca, then that should tell us something.
I can tell you all of this from experience, not just conjecture. Did you read entire posts or comments? Read what the EXPERIENCED have to say. Read what ERIN had to say. Does this mean NOTHING to you?
You know I love the LORD. You know, I spent about 4 hours on my post on this topic. I searched and gave you Scriptures. Did you read them?
1 Peter 3:15 (the verse Amanda gave) admonishes us to KNOW WHY we believe what we believe. Would you tell someone they need Jesus and not give them a Biblical basis? Would you tell anyone that they were in sin and not give a Scriptural basis?
I guess, Sylvia, I am dumbfounded that, with all you know about God, you haven’t done your own Bible Study on it. I don’t understand why you are not offering the Biblical reasons why it is ok to read or watch it. I don’t understand why you keep asking us questions.
I know you are a well-versed Christian. I know you read voraciously. YOU need to know if this is ok for YOU, not for us. YOU need to know why YOU believe this or not.
We have (over)given the verses and reasons we believe what we do. Now, it is your turn to tell us why you believe that the clearly evil portions of these novels and books are not evil and would NOT be considered evil or opposed to God and His Truths in God’s own eyes.
I have seen that you are truthful, loving and honest. I think you are a good friend, even though we disagree on many aspects of religion. I think you are a super young lady, and I am challenging you to really search the WORD for yourself and let us know what the LORD tells you personally! Fast from reading fiction of all kinds and let the LORD speak to you from His WORD, not any other source!
I have given all I need to give on this. Everyone in this country has a brain and access to a Bible. You have access to God and His leading. Ask Him to show you. He loves you and wants you to seek Him on this.
Love, in Him!
MrsD
Hi, MJ!
Thank you for the article. I loved reading the article so much, I read it like 10 times (okay, I’m exagerating a bit, lol):) Anyway, I enjoy reading your blogs and being able to know that there are other christian young ladies who seek the word of God and not the word or the world. I know we do not agree on somethings, but on this you are right on the money! ;) Some Christian’s are so lost, you can’t even tell that they’re christians! You are not like that at all! Your a wonderful example of a ‘young lady after God’s own heart’. Sometimes you go out and see all these girls with WAY to much make-up on, dressed very immodestly and you wouldn’t be able to tell if they were christian or not. Anyway, you can tell you are! :) Wonderful blog! I can’t wait for another one like this! ;)
Thank you sooo much!,
Willow
Your new template is GORGEOUS!!!
POTC is yuck, yuck, yuck! I only saw the first one but I didn’t like the ghosts, I didn’t like the inappropriate refrences, I didn’t like the disrespect for the law, I didn’t like the drinking, I didn’t like Jack’s half-drunken effeminacy……. you get the picture.
NW 1828 O.K. So long as it’s biblical.
Thanks for your opinion on Halloween.
So you’re saying that if it has any supernatural elements, it’s witchcraft and has to go?
Heather
Heathers last blog post..To Spay or not to Spay?
Yes I think that is safe to say…. everything but the bible and history books, maybe? Like I said I’m still weed media stuff out! :)
((HUGS)))
Thank you for all your comments. I am going to close comments on this post because I think all that needs to be said as been. I would encourage you all to go read over the comments and the related links.
God calls us to be holy and to edify ourselves, though all things are lawful. Just because we can do something, doesn’t me we should. What I’ve posted here is what the Scripture tells me is so. If you disagree please search the Scriptures and find a refuting passage. I don’t think you will though.
For the record my family does not do any kind of disney films, fantasy, or silly make-believe. We want to purge all ungodliness in our lives.
I pray that you truly will do the same, no matter your self-wants or comforts are.
Blessings!